From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: fac41,15edb893ef79e231 X-Google-Attributes: gidfac41,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,15edb893ef79e231 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: f4fd2,23202754c9ce78dd X-Google-Attributes: gidf4fd2,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,15edb893ef79e231 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2002-01-12 21:26:27 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!nyccyc01!news-out.nyc.rr.com!typhoon.nyc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3C411B2E.31DC2C99@nyc.rr.com> From: Kenny Tilton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.lang.smalltalk Subject: Re: True faiths ( was Re: The true faith ) References: <%njZ7.279$iR.150960@news3.calgary.shaw.ca> <3c36fbc5_10@news.newsgroups.com> <4idg3u40ermnp682n6igc5gudp7hajkea9@4ax.com> <76be8851.0201101909.9db0718@posting.google.com> <9jtu3u8cq92b05j47uat3412tok6hqu1ki@4ax.com> <3C3FB4CA.14998012@nyc.rr.com> <3C40912D.6050909@staffware-spokane.com> <3C409A34.7DE61ACB@nyc.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 05:24:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.108.26.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyc.rr.com 1010899460 66.108.26.20 (Sun, 13 Jan 2002 00:24:20 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 00:24:20 EST Organization: Road Runner - NYC Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.lisp:24158 comp.lang.ada:18843 comp.lang.eiffel:5383 comp.lang.smalltalk:17857 Date: 2002-01-13T05:24:20+00:00 List-Id: "Thomas F. Burdick" wrote: > > Kenny Tilton writes: > > > Doug Hockin wrote: > > > > [> > > is Kenny Tilton] > > > > Obviously the winner is any compiled (fast), GCed, GFing, MI dynamic > > > > language with macros. Mature, an ANSII standard and a free > > > > implementation would not hurt either. hang on... > > > > > > Like Dylan? > > > > Is Dylan mature, stable, ANSII standard? > > I thought those were just niceties, not necessary for the language to > "win", according to you just above. was doug making that distinction? anyway, that was just a point of information. i do not follow dylan, for all i know it's spec is stable--i wasn't arguing, i was asking. > > Dylan to me adds no value over Lisp, so why bother? > > Well, sure, right now. Since Dylan seems to have what you think it > would take for a non-mainstream language to make it into the > mainstream, if it did, that's the value it *would* offer. I'd be > *thrilled* to be a Dylaner if there were a ton of Dylan jobs. well, my whole point was, look past current popularity to how developers are reacting to the status quo with new languages or new features for java to get at True Popularity. so might-make-it-mainstream is subtly OT. I anyway like to separate the question of how great is a language regardless of its popularity from considerations deriving from popularity, such as the number of available jobs, programmers and libraries. The latter effects of popularity do not in the long run wag the popularity dog; there was a day when COBOL, VSAM and CICS ruled the world. Pascal was so big the original Mac OS team used it. And the Romans really kicked the Christians' asses. Hang on... Note that I am not saying popularity does not add value in the practical ways we all grok, just that I like to control for popularity when assessing long-term prospects of languages. kenny clinisys