From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,bc1361a952ec75ca X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-08-01 10:20:01 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!newsfeed.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!netnews.jhuapl.edu!not-for-mail From: Scott Ingram Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: How to make Ada a dominant language Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 13:12:42 -0400 Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab, Laurel, MD, USA Message-ID: <3B68388A.3B146080@silver.jhuapl.edu> References: <3B676974.C80C72E5@sneakemail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: silver.jhuapl.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: houston.jhuapl.edu 996685963 23995 128.244.80.107 (1 Aug 2001 17:12:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@houston.jhuapl.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Aug 2001 17:12:43 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.ada:10961 Date: 2001-08-01T17:12:43+00:00 List-Id: Russ wrote: > > Well, I guess I touched some raw nerves with my proposal to clean up > Ada's syntax. I certainly appreciate the feedback. > I appreciate your enthusiasm for popularizing Ada, and I don't think you touched any "raw nerves." Most of your respondents in this thread have been using Ada for some time, and understand the rationale behind the syntax that Ada employs. There are some very interesting and valid criticisms that can be made with regard to the language, but the syntax is way below the radar screen for most of us. (snip) > > However, I still stand by the other items in my proposal. I think > semicolons should be essentially eliminated, and I think "=" should be > used for assignment and named association. I also still think the > declaration syntax should be reversed. By the way, someone correctly > pointed out that what I am proposing has a lot in common with Fortran > 95. I personally find these suggestions abhorrent. I find the current syntax a relief after working with other imperative languages. It doesn't happen often, but I have used conditional tests that are sufficiently complex that they are easier to read if broken into several lines, and the semicolon marking the end of the statement is very handy for marking the end of a collection of thoughts. As for the declaration order and assignment operator--they happen to match the way I think very closely, changing them would twist my brain in knots! (Which is the state its in most of the time...) > > Furthermore, I think the idea of having another "dialect" of Ada is an > innovative concept with real potential. If you reject it out hand, you > simply have a closed mind. There are two other "dialects" of Ada that have proven very successful in their targeted markets. PL/SQL as an adjunct to Oracle in the database market, and VHDL in programmable logic devices. What's weird is how many people fail to connect these with Ada. > > Most of the replies I received on this thread were very reasonable. A > recurring theme, however, was that syntax is trivial and not worth > discussing. I understand that the syntax is not the most important > aspect of a language, but that doesn't mean it is not worth discussing > or improving. Agreed, but this actually is not the proper forum. As might be expected for such a formal language, there are working groups and committees who evaluate such proposals for inclusion in the standard. > > I have a colleague who started programming in Fortran way back in the > sixties (maybe even the fifties). He is a master algorithm developer and > programmer. His code is meticulously correct, efficient, and minimal. > When I introduced him to C and C++ several years ago, he was amazed that > he had to clutter his code with all those semicolons and constantly put > up with the compiler's nagging when one is left out. He adapted, of > course, but his initial reaction was right. All those semicolons are > nothing more than a lot of noise. They are litter in your code, and if > you never minded them at all, then your code is probably filled with > lots of other litter too. If so, I hope it is not being used in any > safety-critical systems. > > Russ Paielli Major difference of opinion here: those semicolons are not "litter," but rather like the firestops in the wall of your house they provide an added margin of safety by compartmentalizing thoughts as the firestops compartmentalize the spaces in the structure. As far as Ada's "popularity" goes, I think it fair to argue that it is more popular now than at any time in its history. Although some shops have moved away from its use now the dreaded mandate has been rescinded, there is a lot more traffic on c.l.a from new users who don't carry baggage from that era. -- Scott Ingram Vice-Chair, Baltimore SIGAda System Development and Operational Support Group Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory