From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 107f24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid107f24,public X-Google-Thread: f4fd2,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gidf4fd2,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,ea8ea502d35ca2ce X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 10259a,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid10259a,public X-Google-Thread: 1164ba,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid1164ba,public X-Google-Thread: 103d24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid103d24,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-05-16 11:04:01 PST Path: archiver1.sj.google.com!newsfeed.google.com!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.gtei.net.MISMATCH!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!dfw-service2.ext.raytheon.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3B02C05B.BA4B63C6@raytheon.com> From: Robert Posey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.basic,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.perl Subject: Re: Beginner's Language? References: <9cukad$nn68@news-dxb> <9d6b6e$1bt$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87snihxiwc.fsf@frown.here> <9dbi83$sji$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87heyu7cqd.fsf@frown.here> <9dc20p$hh15e$1@ID-37382.news.dfncis.de> <9dclnt$9ic1@news.cis.okstate.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:00:59 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.126.221.42 X-Complaints-To: news@ext.ray.com X-Trace: dfw-service2.ext.raytheon.com 990036113 138.126.221.42 (Wed, 16 May 2001 13:01:53 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:01:53 CDT Organization: Raytheon Company Xref: archiver1.sj.google.com comp.lang.ada:7576 comp.lang.lisp:10168 comp.lang.smalltalk:9728 comp.lang.functional:5674 comp.lang.scheme:3847 comp.lang.perl:2780 Date: 2001-05-16T13:00:59-05:00 List-Id: David Starner wrote: No, that's not of greater importance. It is, in fact, irrelevant for > any reasonable language. The goal is teaching people to program, > not helping experianced programmers hack up scripts or researchers > write up quicker chess programs. If something is difficult in your > chosen language, you put that off until a latter class, possibly > even in a more suitable language. I agree, no modern program works anything like natural language, and while reserved word and functions should resemble a natural language summary, real natural language would be useless as a programing tool. Do you really want to have to explain a function like printf using standard English. I have never seen it attempted, and even with lots of programing references C String and file functions confuse almost everyone. So it is pretty clear there is no natural language equivalent of most programing Token(functions, reserved words) that would comprise pages of text. Thus, the direct mapping to natural language should be at the memory key level, while not getting excessive in length or spelling complexity for tokens that will be typed millions and billions of times. I pick Java as the first language, it makes C++ easier to learn, it has fewer nasty surprises, and integrates with the web well, so that fun projects are possible. In addition, it is important in the modern University Environment to allow work to be done on either Windoze, Linux, Mac and Unix environments and Java does that without forcing the Graders to maintain different systems. Java IDE vendors IBM and Sun also provide relatively easy to use and free IDE's. LISP is a great language, but its so different it is nightmarish at first to people with some programing experience, and I would assume the reverse is true. I also would never want a student to be able to ignore what type of number they are using, its very bad practice in most cases. Muddy