From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 107f24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid107f24,public X-Google-Thread: f4fd2,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gidf4fd2,public X-Google-Thread: 106e63,4d69155937632764,start X-Google-Attributes: gid106e63,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,ea8ea502d35ca2ce X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 103d24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid103d24,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-05-05 18:46:49 PST Path: newsfeed.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!skynet.be!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!transit.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail From: Reinout Heeck Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.smalltalk.advocacy,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.scheme Subject: Re: Beginner's Language? Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 03:47:19 +0200 Organization: XS4ALL Internet BV Message-ID: <3AF4AD27.BE4B5678@Desk.org> References: <9cukad$nn68@news-dxb> <3AF4841D.7B63812C@Desk.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.109.3.67 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news1.xs4all.nl 989113607 2611 194.109.3.67 (6 May 2001 01:46:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 May 2001 01:46:47 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-3 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Xref: newsfeed.google.com comp.lang.ada:7218 comp.lang.lisp:9728 comp.lang.functional:5528 comp.lang.scheme:3645 Date: 2001-05-06T01:46:47+00:00 List-Id: Dale Stanbrough wrote: > > Reinout Heeck wrote: > > > In the case of Smalltalk you will need to slightly change that > > statement: the core system is very tiny, all the functionality is in > > it's class library. That even goes as far as that the core does not > > implement control flow, the libraries do. Restricting one to only part > > of the libraries is wat every programmer does. > > Even then i would not teach students about converting values into > messages, which are (i think) not implemented in a library, but as > part of the language itself. I don't understand what you are getting at. Messaging is indeed part of the core system but values are not messages, values are objects in a Smalltalk system and messages return those values. But what do you mean when you say 'converting values into messages' ? If you are referring to the need to use messages to get to instance variables I'd say that is a real good thing, it hides implementation and thus keeps changes in implementation local. > Perhaps Forth would have been a better example? Of what? The Forth ANSI standard is small enough to be grasped by a single person so there is no need to aim at a restricted set there. Anyway I prefer Smalltalk above Forth, one of the reasons being that Smalltalk yields much more readable code. The absence of syntax in Forth makes it hard to read (mentally parse) code one is not familiar with. However if I had to program devices with tiny memory I would seriously consider using Forth. Reinout -------