From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,c8086456b887be55 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-04-30 09:03:21 PST Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Path: newsfeed.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news-reader.ntrnet.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!xyzzy!nntp From: Jeffrey Carter Subject: Re: Ada, Software Engineering and "weirdoes" (was License to Steal) X-Nntp-Posting-Host: e246420.msc.az.boeing.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <3AED8782.582AA8AE@boeing.com> Sender: nntp@news.boeing.com (Boeing NNTP News Access) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: The Boeing Company X-Accept-Language: en References: <92HD6.3345$D4.334091@www.newsranger.com> <200104240531.WAA01552@well.com> <3AE5A34F.B89C8D5F@boeing.com> <9cbk4a$que$1@trog.dera.gov.uk> <3AE9B1F9.A9C2E8A4@boeing.com> <9cconc$8a21@news.cis.okstate.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 15:40:50 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD Boeing Kit (WinNT; U) Xref: newsfeed.google.com comp.lang.ada:7055 Date: 2001-04-30T15:40:50+00:00 List-Id: David Starner wrote: > > Saying coders = lousy programmers and software engineers = good > programmers is not a useful distinction, and it's somewhat arrogant > to boot. I didn't say this. I don't use the term "programmer", since it does not make the distinction between coders and software engineers. What I said was that coders /= software engineers. > > If making the distinction between a software programmer and an > software engineer is useful and meaningful, it has to do with the > design of code, not the speed of implementation. That you could code > their problem in 4 hours is not interesting. Was your code > documented? Was it maintainable? Did it follow a clear design plan? > Were the same style conventions used throughout the code? Was it > tested? Did it have a formal test structure? Many a programmer who > couldn't write structured, maintainable code to save his life can > churn out working (for common cases) code extremely fast. The point is not that I am good or special because I could solve this problem quickly; the point is that the problem is simple because I could solve this quickly, and therefore an unreasonable schedule is not why this small team could not solve the problem in a 15-week semester. I think these coders could have solved the problem if they'd stuck to coding. It's because they tried to do software engineering that they produced a horribly over-complex analysis and design that they could not implement. They are not "weirdoes" and thus unable to do software engineering, despite having CS degrees, several years of experience, and all the course work for the MS SWSE degree. This is the overall point of my post, which was to rebut the claim in an earlier post that one could identify a software engineer by the possession of a master's degree in software engineering. These people have such a degree, but they are not software engineers. -- Jeffrey Carter