From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,INVALID_MSGID, MSGID_SHORT autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 109fba,f292779560fb8442 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: fac41,af40e09e753872c X-Google-Attributes: gidfac41,public X-Google-Thread: 1014db,30e368bdb3310fe5 X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,30e368bdb3310fe5 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: f8c65,30e368bdb3310fe5 X-Google-Attributes: gidf8c65,public X-Google-Thread: 1008e3,30e368bdb3310fe5 X-Google-Attributes: gid1008e3,public X-Google-Thread: 10db24,30e368bdb3310fe5 X-Google-Attributes: gid10db24,public From: shane@wonk.demon.co.uk (Shane Badham)@wonk.demon.co.uk (Shane Badham) Subject: Re: The Last Word on Comments (was Re: Hungarian notation) Date: 1996/06/05 Message-ID: <39@wonk.demon.co.uk>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 158826583 distribution: world x-nntp-posting-host: wonk.demon.co.uk references: <4o07o9$rfu@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4o1vo3$p2a@news1.ni.net> <4oegks$ntn@goanna.cs.rmit.EDU.AU> <4p2jau$hkp@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4p3dad$mia@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> organization: S.M.& J.K. Badham newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.modula3,comp.lang.modula2,comp.edu,comp.lang.eiffel Date: 1996-06-05T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: In article <4p3dad$mia@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> fulton.52@osu.edu (Mike Fulton) writes: >In article <4p2jau$hkp@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au>, peter@tesla.newcastle.edu.au wrote: >>Clark L. Coleman (clc5q@mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU) wrote: >> >>>The real problem in academia in this regard is the continual assignment >>>of projects that will only take 1 to 3 pages of final source code. >> >>This is indeed the problem, and I don't know how to solve it. >>Those of us with experience in real-world projects know that >>there's a radical difference between the techniques needed to >>write a big program and those needed to write a "Hello world" >>program. Most students don't understand this, and frankly I >>don't know how to get the message across. > >I'm a soph at Ohio State, just finished my second modula-2 class and I agree >with the two preceding points 110%. I started college at the age of 28 and >have coded in everything from 6809 assembler to MS VBA (but never modula >until now), starting at the age of 12. But, this is my first time to learn >correct structure--wish someone would've told me this stuff when I was 12 :) >So, maybe my perspective is odd, but here's my idea. > >Why don't schools design projects/labs that build upon themselves. Every one >of my projects could have been done without doing the preceding projects. >When we implemented Abstract Data Types (ADT), they gave us the .def files and >told use how to use the procedures. Why not have us build those >implementation modules first. Start with what the language gives you and then >extend it. Create an ADT from the ground up. Then have us use the ADT we >made to implement other ADT by layering them over our first ones. After we >build enough structures and routines, have us use them to create a real >project. Something that would be difficult to build from scratch, but >moderately easy using OUR tools. This would truely show us the value of >starting with good data structures. And it would force us to write readable >code and use good commenting, since you have to use today's code 1 or 2 months >later, or even next quarter. > >I realize this would cripple the student who had trouble in the beginning. Or >maybe it would bring the problems to light sooner (by force) so the student >could get back on track. I think you must understand the basic structures or >there's no point in going further anyway. > >Just my thought :) Mike, Thats good input. We did something similar on our Ada programming assignments. However, the tutors did not have us do all the bottom up packages. Instead they _provided_ many of the packages, pre-written. We then used these in our application and wrote some ourselves. This was the older Object based Ada, similar to Modula-2 in concept. The effect was that of belonging to a larger team on a much larger project. The scope of the project was large, not "itsibitsy" apps. Regards, Shane. shane@wonk.demon.co.uk "A closed mouth gathers no feet."