From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,INVALID_MSGID autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,71d1fdde81c072f8 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Computer Programming for Everybody? Date: 1999/09/22 Message-ID: <37E92BB5.3C2DB9BB@mitre.org>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 528341322 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <7rbkm4$pn6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7rikv9$ibg3@ftp.kvaerner.com> <7rjceh$92t@dfw-ixnews15.ix.netcom.com> <37DED9FE.9A882C2C@mitre.org> <7ronav$shf@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> X-Accept-Language: en Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 938027675 5912 129.83.41.77 (22 Sep 1999 19:14:35 GMT) Organization: The MITRE Corporation Mime-Version: 1.0 NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Sep 1999 19:14:35 GMT Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: 1999-09-22T19:14:35+00:00 List-Id: Richard D Riehle wrote: > I don't think we are in substantial disagreement on this except on > the issue of language choice. I am not as opposed to BASIC as Dijkstra is, but I understand where he is coming from. However, I do believe that teaching a limited language as a second language is bad form. And yes, for many children mathematics or some "natural" language is that second language, and they won't be hurt by being exposed to a limited language. (Teaching a limited language as the first language or worse, the first and only language should be criminal. Fortunately almost all children today are being exposed to English while they are young enough for it to do some good.) The problem with learning BASIC as a first programming language is that the limits it imposes on the way people think can persist for years. It might even convince someone to LIKE programming in C++ because of the relative freedom. ;-) Incidently I don't include True BASIC as a BASIC variant, and I am not sure I consider Visual BASIC to be other than a visual programming tool. Also I have seen many "BASIC" programs where more than fifty percent of the lines read PEEK or POKE--might as well program in assembler...) There is nothing wrong with using limited languages for limited purposes. Also, we have a very, very serious problem developing and I don't know what we (as industry and academia) can do about it. There is still a significant need for software engineers that know how to program in assember, or how to read assembly language. But most of the young people who are learning assembly code are hackers and/or crackers. But the jobs that need to be filled are concentrated in the safety-critical software field... I'd like to see something like the old NSF summer programs, where the first summer students learn programming in Ada, Pascal, or some other language that favors software engineering as well as something about Web progamming. The second summer they should do some serious assembler programming or the equivalent. (What ever happened to PL/M?) -- Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...