From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,INVALID_MSGID, LOTS_OF_MONEY,REPLYTO_WITHOUT_TO_CC autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 1108a1,d275ffeffdf83655 X-Google-Attributes: gid1108a1,public X-Google-Thread: 146b77,d275ffeffdf83655 X-Google-Attributes: gid146b77,public X-Google-Thread: f5d71,d275ffeffdf83655 X-Google-Attributes: gidf5d71,public X-Google-Thread: 101b33,d275ffeffdf83655 X-Google-Attributes: gid101b33,public X-Google-Thread: 109fba,d275ffeffdf83655 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: f849b,d275ffeffdf83655 X-Google-Attributes: gidf849b,public X-Google-Thread: 115aec,d275ffeffdf83655 X-Google-Attributes: gid115aec,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,d275ffeffdf83655 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public From: Marin David Condic Subject: Re: Ada vs C++ vs Java Date: 1999/01/13 Message-ID: <369D26F1.68C323FC@pwfl.com>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 432318673 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: condicma@bogon.pwfl.com References: <369C1F31.AE5AF7EF@concentric.net> <369CBAED.20BE91CA@pwfl.com> <77j34t$b11@agora.dmz.khoral.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Pratt & Whitney Mime-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: diespammer@pwfl.com Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.c++,comp.vxworks,comp.lang.java,comp.java.advocacy,comp.realtime,comp.arch.embedded,comp.object,comp.lang.java.programmer Date: 1999-01-13T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: Well I'll come as clean as I can on the issue of cost. We *do* care how much a compiler costs and we *don't* want to be some vendor's cash cow. We, as much as anybody else, want to save money and do the job in as cost effective a manner as possible. We get squeezed by budgetary constraints as much as the next guy. That being said, if suddenly there were only one Ada vendor on the planet and they, like all good businessmen, set their prices to get MC=MR and started jumping the price up to significantly higher levels, we'd probably have to take a look at the investment we already have in home-grown and off-the-shelf tools & infrastructure and decide if it made sense to scrap the language or allow ourselves to be milked. Given the size of what we do and our investment in infrastructure, the price tag could go up and we'd find it to our advantage to pay. Fortunately, there *is* competition and even if not, there *are* alternatives. We're pretty smart around here when it comes to software and we could find a way of vertically integrating if we were under threat. Keep in mind that Ada compilers for most platforms are not that expensive. Many of them can be purchased by your garden variety engineer for home use without first getting permission from the spousal unit. More fully featured systems are still within the reach of a well paid engineer who saves his money and is enough of a geek to blow it on a compiler instead of a vacation. And once we start talking about *embedded* systems, the price tag of *all* compilers goes up significantly for some pretty obvious reasons: You need really good quality code out of them and you need lots of support tools to get the code into the embedded box. The more stuff a vendor gives you, the more they expect to receive on payday. As for paying lots of money for a support contract, I think that is more a function of what sort of support you need for the job you are doing. I'm sure that if I had to go to a vendor of *any* language and ask for the kinds of modifications, extensions, bug fixing and hand-holding that is typical of hard real time development, they'd want a bunch of money too. OTOH, I've purchased compilers with zero support beyond a couple of installation related phone calls (any vendor had better give you this much) and been quite happy with the results. It depends what you expect to do with the compiler. Also, a thing you want to consider with hard real time, safety critical applications is that at some point rather early on in the life of the project, you no longer need *any* support from the vendor because you are going to freeze the version of the compiler and live with it the way it is. Usually this is also a point in the project where you no longer need to call the vendor and ask "How do I make your compiler do XYZ????" so if the vendor wants to milk you, they've got to do it in the early stages. MDC Richard Krehbiel wrote: > I would have to speculate that for this application, the amount of money you > spend on the compiler, tools, and support is virtually irrelevant. > Supposing Ada falls into disfavor and is relegated to a few critical > realtime tasks like yours, it's likely your Ada vendor will still be most > happy to continue to offer you years of support and upgrades, so long as the > contract is lucrative (and it can keep their company afloat). > > Most of the rest of us care deeply whether the compiler and toolset costs > $50,000 a year for the support contract. Choosing a language which is not > just a good language, but which is also popular, means we enjoy econmies of > scale and competition that ensure low prices and a choice of vendors. This > is just one point of many to consider, but unless you find GNAT suitable, it > may tend to favor C++ over Ada. > -- Marin David Condic Real Time & Embedded Systems, Propulsion Systems Analysis United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney, Large Military Engines M/S 731-95, P.O.B. 109600, West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600 Ph: 561.796.8997 Fx: 561.796.4669 ***To reply, remove "bogon" from the domain name.*** "Nobody shot me." -- Last words of Frank Gusenberg when asked by police who shot him fourteen times with a machine gun in the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre.