From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,INVALID_MSGID, REPLYTO_WITHOUT_TO_CC autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 111d6b,328622178ec8b832 X-Google-Attributes: gid111d6b,public X-Google-Thread: 111d6b,3cfb037adfeca545 X-Google-Attributes: gid111d6b,public X-Google-Thread: 10d15b,328622178ec8b832 X-Google-Attributes: gid10d15b,public X-Google-Thread: 10d15b,3cfb037adfeca545 X-Google-Attributes: gid10d15b,public X-Google-Thread: 1014db,3cfb037adfeca545 X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public X-Google-Thread: 1094ba,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid1094ba,public X-Google-Thread: 1094ba,3cfb037adfeca545 X-Google-Attributes: gid1094ba,public X-Google-Thread: 1014db,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,8775b19e3c68a5dc X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,3cfb037adfeca545 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 109fba,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: 109fba,3cfb037adfeca545 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,3cfb037adfeca545 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public From: "Wayne L. Beavers" Subject: Re: Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? Date: 1998/01/29 Message-ID: <34D0A9F7.4768@beyond-software.com>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 320296409 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <67et6o$dql@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <67ktrg$ibk@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <883319809snz@genesis.demon.co.uk> <68bt2p$d48@lotho.delphi.com> <34a991f0.2379476@news.diac.com> <68dm0i$brv1@news.fiberlink.net> <01bd198f$4050d960$68c8b5cc@dhite.unicomp.net> <34B71B71.1EFDCAD8@ix.netcom.com> <34B8DC0F.BA0554DB@acm.org> <01bd1ebd$8580b9a0$b2684bc2@xzSys> <34BA520B.534F@mail.state.wi.us> <6alu5l$onm$1@owl.slip.net> <01bd2c2a$69b107a0$9f684bc2@xzSys> <01bd2c45$f7ff6f40$7261b693@HP5079Q> Mime-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: Wayne_Beavers@beyond-software.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Beyond Software Incorporated Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.misc,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.cobol,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.ada Date: 1998-01-29T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: Joe Gwinn wrote: > > snip > > I don't expect programmers to learn engineering anytime soon, but there is > one big problem I do have with most programmers -- they are ignorant of > assembly code and the internals of generated code, runtime systems, > operating systems, etc. This ignorance causes serious problems; it simply > isn't enough to know only the surface of . Some learn > these things on the job, but most don't. I disagree. There really is no reason for a COBOL programmer working on Accounts Payable applications to know how to shoot a 64 meg stand alone dump of an MVS/ESA system in a hard loop or disabled wait. Why would a COBOL programmer be interested in analyzing a GTF trace? Why would a COBOL programmer examine CCW chains? No reason. That's why we have systems programmers. I know a fair amount about the internals of MVS and VM operating systems. I can shoot dumps and trace tables well enough. What I can not do is design business applications. I don't know much at all about accounting, manufacturing, transportation, retail, finance, etc. I started out as an Electronic Engineering major and switched to Computer Science in my junior year, a long time ago. Of course today the average systems programmer no longer has the skills to shoot stand alone dumps. They just call IBM and get the fix and put it on. For the few of us around that can still diagnose systems problems we all have new titles now. Last time I looked I was a "Software Engineer", according to my business cards. -- Wayne L. Beavers mailto:Wayne_Beavers@Beyond-Software.com Beyond Software, Inc. http://www.beyond-software.com "Transforming Legacy Applications"