From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 1014db,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public X-Google-Thread: 10d15b,328622178ec8b832 X-Google-Attributes: gid10d15b,public X-Google-Thread: 1094ba,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid1094ba,public X-Google-Thread: 111d6b,328622178ec8b832 X-Google-Attributes: gid111d6b,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,8775b19e3c68a5dc X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-Thread: 109fba,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public From: steve Subject: Re: Which language pays most 17457 -- C++ vs. Java? Date: 1997/12/21 Message-ID: <349D4E8A.1FECCCA1@seasoned-software.com> X-Deja-AN: 309356727 References: <67et6o$dql@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> <882757510snz@genesis.demon.co.uk> <67ktrg$ibk@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Giles Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------DB94F61BEA376B1AC2D67016" Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.misc,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.cobol,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.ada Date: 1997-12-21T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------DB94F61BEA376B1AC2D67016 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Giles wrote: > Lawrence Kirby wrote in message <882757510snz@genesis.demon.co.uk>... > >In article <67et6o$dql@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> > > jamesgiles@worldnet.att.net "James Giles" writes: > ... > >>Exactly what I said. Bill Gates (Slick Willie West) has learned his > >>lessons well. He'd never have got away with it if UNIX hadn't set the > >>stage. > > > >The "stage" at the time for the development of DOS was CP/M. Windows was > >an attempt to counter the Mac. NT is greatly influenced by VMS. Unix > >has very little relevance here. > > On the contrary. The stage was the choice between, first CP/M > and then DOS on the one hand DOS 1.0 was CP/M 86 from seattle microworks(a workalike to CP/M from digital research)! They were basically the SAME THING!!!!!! > , or to buy a mini (or later, a workstation) > and run UNIX (probably with several terminals and users per UNIX machine > if you bought the mini). That was the percieved choice of business users > circa 1980. WRONG! The average business couldn't consider UNIX! WHY? Because it was harder to use, had fewer reasonably priced(and easy to get) programs, and few even knew about it! GIVE ME A BREAK! ALSO, UNIX was made to run under larger systems. It couldn't run well under the 8086 system until they got MMUs! The FIRST 8086 with an MMU was the 80386! SURE, some companies tried to make it run on the 286, and some even did things earlier, but the were effectively toys! > DOS only succeeded because people percieved UNIX as the > other choice. YEAH RIGHT! Like the average business would have spent over 10 times as much for software if they respected UNIX, and even KNEW about it? Dream on! > They did not see that UNIX provided better performance (for > the money), or that is was more reliable - which it wasn't at the time. UNIX COULDN'T be more reliable! UNIX is a full blown operating system with security, networking, message passing, multitasking, multiuser, etc..... DOS was merely a Disk Operating System! Almost NONE of the above. Try getting DOS to multitask! MOST of the products(such as desqview) made it LESS reliable than UNIX, and it didn't do much of the other stuff UNIX does. > Indeed, one of the problems is that most businesses had to hire additional > personel to support UNIX but not DOS. > I remember this because I was there. I was rather amused by the > debate at the time because it didn't have much to do with me: at > work I used mainframes (which no one in those days would have > suggested using UNIX on) and at home I was a hobbyist without > the means to buy either a mini or a high-cost workstation. Well, UNIX is now running on almost every machine! IBM RS/6000 and DEC ALPHAs BOTH run UNIX! With IBM, it is first choice. With The alpha, it might be second to NT! > A few > years later I had a SUN on my desk at work though (can't say I was > impressed, but it did have a really big screen). It will only impress the one that uses the features. It's made to get the job done and done well, not to impress. > >Whether you believe it is adequate or not Unix has a security system > >built in, it is a significant issue in the OS. If BG learnt anything > >from Unix it would have been that security is an issue. Clearly he > >didn't. I apologise for getting drawn into this troll. Well, DOS was clearly NOT a UNIX replacement. > To be sure, UNIX has better security than DOS and Windows (which have > none at all) but it's not really very secure. Try breaking into most UNIX systems. It isn't that easy. MOST security problems are due to common problems in peripheral programs. > In any case, when I mentioned > security as a desirable asset, I had in mind comparing the system to > other multi-user systems. Only one UNIX implementation I've ever heard > of met Orange Book category B requirements (at the lowest level of > category B and only with enormous changes to how it did security). > Systems exist (or used to, before the UNIX revolution) which meet > category B and impose less of a burden on users in terms of confusion > and maintenence than UNIX security does. Actually, there ARE some very secure systems that meet the highest security levels. And hell, I'm only in this discussion because I got drawn in by someone's > *defence* of UNIX which said that I should somehow expect systems > software to be *less* reliable than other kinds of software. What kind of > a defense is that? Certainly any reasonable person disagrees with that > assessment (including the person who originally said it). That's right, blame me. I said more PRONE. Obviously, most people want to work the kinks aout BEFORE anyone sees them. ALSO, it is more complicated. SCO STILL has problems with some pretty basic code. I ALSO always state that I have NEVER had my linux system crash unexpectedly. It RARELY crashes! BTW, it crashes LESS than my first DOS system did! That first dos system would crash because of some bad third party code, or because I found a problem in debugging my code. Linux doesn't have that problem!... > > [...] The ratio of installed systems to system > >>maintenence personel should be about the same as the ratio > >>of vehicles on the road to the number of auto mechanics: 500 to > >>1000 (or higher). > > > >What systems are you aware of that have this sort of ratio (and I mean > >systems that service user applications, not things like embedded systems)? > > > I'm not saying that security never introduces a burden on the user, > but it is possible to design a security system that is less burdensome > than what UNIX has and yet is more secure. If it is "less burdensome", it will have less, and can be more secure. You can do that with UNIX! > Finally, I don't understand why everyone is in such vehement opposition to > me on this. Even if you *don't* believe that there have been better systems > than UNIX in the past, you must admit that UNIX is *NOT* perfect; that ideas > for improved systems ought to be pursued; that among these ideas, what I've > described *might* have merit. The only people I can think of who'd actually > oppose a more reliable and more secure system are those whose jobs are > to maintain the existing ones. ACTUALLY, UNIX is a GREAT kernel! It has evolved GREATLY over the years. Why change commands, and rewrite WORKING code, to satisfy your requests? > Well, argue it out among yourselves and Happy Holidays. I'm > leaving and probably will not see another round of this "discuss it among > yourselves" > > > -- > J. Giles > Ricercar Software --------------DB94F61BEA376B1AC2D67016 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for steve Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: steve n: ;steve org: SEASONED SOFTWARE email;internet: steve@seasoned-software.com note: notes would be here! x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------DB94F61BEA376B1AC2D67016--