From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,INVALID_MSGID autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 111d6b,328622178ec8b832 X-Google-Attributes: gid111d6b,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-Thread: 109fba,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,8775b19e3c68a5dc X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 1094ba,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid1094ba,public X-Google-Thread: 1014db,a03ae7f4e53958e1 X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public X-Google-Thread: 10d15b,328622178ec8b832 X-Google-Attributes: gid10d15b,public From: steve Subject: Re: Which language pays most 17457 -- C++ vs. Java? Date: 1997/12/17 Message-ID: <349888E3.F5EC3518@seasoned-software.com>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 299512002 References: <199712121931.LAA25389@sirius.infonex.com> <66sfln$uac@lotho.delphi.com> <3498315B.144B@pseserv3.fw.hac.com> <349745D3.F4AA0460@seasoned-software.com> <34994D43.6858@ici.net> <01bd0c0b$53cc1860$26db45cf@juddesk> To: Judson McClendon Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------8C76D3A1A1C84240B1EBDA38" MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.misc,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.fortran,comp.lang.cobol,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.ada Date: 1997-12-17T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8C76D3A1A1C84240B1EBDA38 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WOW! We agree AGAIN! 8-) Judson McClendon wrote: > Alicia Carla Longstreet wrote: > > > > BASIC should *NEVER* under any circumstances be taught to first time > > programmers. It is the worst possible language to use to teach > > programming. This tirade does not apply to the various modular > > languages, like Visual Basic, that are not really BASIC but use Basic in > > their names. > > You obviously learned this from books or someone else, not from experience in > teaching others to program! Perhaps you are unfamiliar with languages like > APL or RPG? Modern BASICs like QuickBasic are far and away superior to > those, or C, for a beginning language. QB supports formal subroutines and > functions, with prototyping and data typing, constants, recursion, name > scoping, data structures, etc. You obviously don't know this, or you would > hardly make such rashly silly statements. > > > C is actually a good first langauge. The set of keywords is small so > > the instructor can concentrate on concepts like data types, structured > > programming, modularity, encapsulation and data hiding,and algorithms > > rather on a thousand and one commands needed to do all of the above. A > > beginner needs only and for the first semester, and > > 60% of the functions in these can be safely ignored. That leaves less > > than 100 keywords that the beginner needs to learn. > > C is a *horrible* first language! If you actually think learning C as a > first language makes it easier, then you are running around out in the weeds > somewhere, looking for home. You either 1) don't know C, or 2) don't know > anything else. Talking about the 'number of keywords' in C, as if that were > the difficulty issue, is farcical! How are you going to teach them to input > or output anything without getting into the standard functions? Have you > actually looked at how many C functions there are to handle I/O? C is far > and away more subtle and difficult to learn than BASIC. You can't even > discuss string handling in C getting into arrays, pointers, pointers to > arrays, the host of string handling functions, etc. You can't even discuss > many of the basic functions like scanf() without discussing pointers, > indirection, address-of, etc. You start discussing all these concepts to a > beginning student, and likely their eyes will glaze over. Why start a > beginner out in a language which requires assimilation of all these concepts > before they can actually DO anything? Many people have trouble abstracting > their logic. They need a beginning language which allows them to ease into > the concepts, and build on what they've learned, without having to take on > too much too soon. It is very important, when starting to learn any > completely new subject, that the student develop a feeling of confidence. To > achieve this, students need a beginning language in which they can get > results early. Anyone who has even a little experience in teaching others > should know this. Learning to program with C as a first language is like > learning to ski on an 'extreme' slope! > -- > Judson McClendon This is a faithful saying and worthy of all > Sun Valley Systems acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the > judmczzz@mindspring.com world to save sinners (1 Timothy 1:15) > (please remove zzz from email id to respond) --------------8C76D3A1A1C84240B1EBDA38 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for steve Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: steve n: ;steve org: SEASONED SOFTWARE email;internet: steve@seasoned-software.com note: notes would be here! x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------8C76D3A1A1C84240B1EBDA38--