From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_05,INVALID_MSGID autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: fac41,995c28f68b9dc343 X-Google-Attributes: gidfac41,public X-Google-Thread: 1108a1,c7b637f8b783b7c X-Google-Attributes: gid1108a1,public X-Google-Thread: f43e6,995c28f68b9dc343 X-Google-Attributes: gidf43e6,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,995c28f68b9dc343 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 107d55,995c28f68b9dc343 X-Google-Attributes: gid107d55,public X-Google-Thread: 109fba,c7b637f8b783b7c X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public From: Tim Ottinger Subject: Re: The great Java showcase (re: 2nd historic mistake) Date: 1997/09/16 Message-ID: <341F1106.81FF614A@dave-world.net>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 273095323 References: <5vkbej$gur$1@news2.digex.net> X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Ell Newsgroups: comp.object,comp.software-eng,comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.lang.java.tech,comp.lang.c++ Date: 1997-09-16T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: Ell wrote: > Tim Ottinger (tottinge@dave-world.net) wrote: > : People don't know what they want. > Believe me most people _do_ know what they _want_. No. Most people see a thing and then decide they want it. Most companies want "market share". Like Poplawski's company wanted to corner the market on soda fountains. But they really didn't want that. Cornering the market in a doomed industry is nobody's idea of a good time. What Stephen Poplawski offered them was what they really wanted: a product that would make them a lot of money and ensure their continuation. But they didn't recognize it because they didn't understand that what they'd already seen wasn't what they really wanted. They concentrated on what has been and what was, the myth of shortage economies. Had they tried to make some money for themselves rather than trying to capture the money that was going to others (or had they tried both) then that company would have done well. As it was, Poplawski ended up as an engineer at Oster, well after Waring had the market under pretty good control. > : They don't know what they need. > Never? In all cases? So only the engineers can tell us what they > need? Most people want freedom, compensation, respect, and autonomy. If you list those out for them. Otherwise, they want safety, simplicity, to be in comfortable situations where their consequences won't harm them, and a clear path to follow. Most people want both at the same time and don't realize that they're contradictory. Now, when people have settled into comfortable habits with a process or practice, then they may want to have the same practice or process automated. These people are frequently successful in getting what they want, because they want what they already have. Just faster and more convenient. What year was it when you realized that you wanted a web browser? By how many years did it predate the first appearance of the internet? This shows that new possibilities open up new needs. When something new comes out, people suddenly have a "need" for it, because they just realized that it was possible or useful. I use the web like crazy, but didn't know that I needed it before I had access to it the first time. I just knew I wanted access to information. Beyond that, it was a set of engineers somewhere (CERN and UIUC in particular) who showed us what could be, and then we wanted it. I've built systems for people who were just starting businesses. They wanted a single program which was a combination accounting system, game system, CAD tool, CASE tool, web browser, database, spreadsheet, and recipe file. In short, they wanted everything they'd ever seen. The analyst's job in these kinds of systems was to determine (with the customer) what they really needed and focus them on their real and most immediate needs. The analyst was a consultant and helped them to plan processes which would really work, and automation for those processes. And to convince them that they didn't have to have all of these in a single program. Having seperate web browser, recipe file, and accounting system wasn't bad. Most people want everything they've ever seen. Other people want the most expensive few things they've already seen. Very few people know what they want other than selecting from showrooms, catalogs, and recommendations. Otherwise, people would all design their own clothes, houses, cars, etc. Fashions in clothing and music would be dead. > This is a lot like the statement your president RMartin made that "the > > engineers should determine the domain model". > > I think you are wrong to make such an uqualified assertion. If you > said: > "They _sometimes_ don't know _precisely_ what they need", you would > be a lot closer to the truth, imo. I will accept this final answer as being more nearly the problem I had than the former. However, as much as I believe in human dignity and as much as I would like to believe the world a tidy place, I know in my heart of hearts that this is not true. In fact, I'm still trying to define what I want in a programming language, IDE tool, CASE tool, and database. I only know what I've seen and not what I really want. I'm betting that this is a normal thing, part of the human condition. How do I decidee? I shop around and look at different ones. I don't know what I want, but I'll know what's missing when I see what's available. Tim