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From: Ken Garlington <GarlingtonKE@lmtas.lmco.com>
Subject: Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract
Date: 1997/03/31
Date: 1997-03-31T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <333FEE29.D6@lmtas.lmco.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: tz8ohcjv7cc.fsf@aimnet.com


Jon S Anthony wrote:
> 
> In article <slrn5jmbhv.7k9.kennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> kennel@nospam.lyapunov.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)) writes:
> 
> > :Ada _has_ assertions.  Their form is not of the same syntactical look
> > :as Eiffel's.  So what?  They take the form of constraints, in
> > :particular (wrt to the case at hand) subtype constraints.  They are
> > :_not_ as flexible or full "featured" as Eiffel's but they are
> > :certainly there and in the Ariane case, they are every bit as capable
> > :as Eiffel's.
> >
> > Of course static type constraints are a form of 'precondition', namely
> > "the object being referred to by this reference, or in this variable is
> >  one of these types".
> >
> > By that measure C++, C, and Pascal, and maybe even Fortran have assertions.
> 
> Yes, I would agree with that.  Also note that while subtypes are
> indeed "primitive" in comparison to Eiffel capabilities, their limits
> can be (and often are) computed at runtime.  For example:
> 
>     subtype Current_Constraint is integer range Current_Min .. Current_Max;
> 
> where both Current_Min and Current_Max are functions.
> 
> > It is often useful and powerful to program in a style in a
> > statically typed language where important information is encoded
> > into types, but this is not a full substitute for Eiffel's
> > additional capabilities.
> 
> Absolutely agreed.
> 
> > Whether or not it would have done so in the rocket crash is another
> > story.
> 
> Check.  The main thing to note in regards to this point is that
> 
>   a) the sort of assertion capability called out in the M&J paper
> which supposedly could have helped is nothing more (or less) than an
> Ada subtype constraint.
> 
>   b) the practitioners knew all about this capability and even used
> it in places.
> 
>   c) the particular case in point was _proven_ to be not possible
> _within_ the contextual environment intended for the use of the
> component.
> 
>   d) given c) there is no good reason (no reason even) to include such
> an assertion and in fact very good reasons to _not_ include it.
> 
>   e) for those who think d) is dumb, please note that this sort of
> thing is standard practice in _real_ engineering - lest nothing would
> be buildable and/or useable.

Exactly. It has been implied that, with Design by Contract, that the
reasons _not_ to include an assertion are mitigated to the extent that
just about every conceivable assertion is routinely included in systems
designed with this methodology. I could be easily convinced that there
are more explicit assertions in a DBC program than an Ada program, based
on the extra expressive power in Eiffel specifications. However, if a
programmer sees the violation of an assertion as highly improbably, I
would expect it would not get written regardless of the language used.
I would be interested in evidence to the contrary.

> 
> To draw an analogy, someone who is designing a wing notes that the
> context of its use will be that of standard A to B general aviation
> flights.  The context also requires all sorts of practical things like
> weight limits, cost limits, etc. for the sort of use it will have.
> Now, such an environment does not require unlimited style acrobatic
> flight or some such.  Nor does it assume that the pilots will
> intentionally fly into category 6 thunderstorms.  The G loads of the
> environment are will within limit loads of +3 and -1 (ultimate loads
> of +4 and -2).
> 
> Now, under such circumstance why would the designer require that the
> wing shall meet limit loads of +10/-10?  The attitude of some people
> here seems to be "of course it should be built with such capability -
> some fool _might_ try to fly acro with the plane it is on or maybe go
> into such storms".  But that's not the context of use and in the
> intended area of use, the cost of such a thing will be much more than
> another perfectly suitable wing with the appropriate assumed limits.
> It will likely be much heavier as well, and with less usable space for
> fuel cells.  This would reduce practical useful load and range in any
> airplane using it.  What's more, it is always possible that someone
> would exceed +10/-10 as well.  So where do you stop?
> 
> Now, where is this sort of contextual information in such real
> engineering designs?  In the "code" - i.e., actual example?  No way.
> That's way to easy to miss.  It's in the associated specifications,
> blueprints, and documentation - including all the way down to the user
> (pilot operating handbook).
> 
> /Jon
> --
> Jon Anthony
> Organon Motives, Inc.
> Belmont, MA 02178
> 617.484.3383
> jsa@organon.com

--
LMTAS - The Fighter Enterprise - "Our Brand Means Quality"
For job listings, other info: http://www.lmtas.com or
http://www.lmco.com




  parent reply	other threads:[~1997-03-31  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 254+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1997-03-15  0:00 Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-18  0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19  0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Chris Brand
     [not found] ` <tz8ohcjv7cc.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-16  0:00   ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Richard Irvine
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19  0:00         ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-21  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21  0:00             ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-25  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Trust but verify " Robert S. White
1997-03-25  0:00                   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-26  0:00                     ` Robb Nebbe
1997-03-27  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-28  0:00                       ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-28  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-07  0:00                           ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-28  0:00                       ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
1997-03-31  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-29  0:00                     ` the one and only real true kibo
     [not found]         ` <199703190839.JAA02652@stormbringer.irisa.fr>
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Please do not start a language war " Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00             ` Robert S. White
1997-03-20  0:00               ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-21  0:00                 ` Robert S. White
1997-03-21  0:00                 ` Wolfgang Gellerich
1997-03-20  0:00               ` John L. Ahrens
1997-03-20  0:00             ` Roger T.
1997-03-21  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21  0:00               ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-24  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
     [not found]       ` <tz8913l930b.fsf_-_@aimnet.com>
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war Roedy Green
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Gavin Collings
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Kent Tong
1997-03-20  0:00       ` Ranan Fraer
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
     [not found]     ` <tz8g1xtzx9y.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-18  0:00           ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18  0:00           ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-19  0:00             ` Programming language fanaticism! Louis Bastarache
1997-03-20  0:00               ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-20  0:00             ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-24  0:00               ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-27  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-29  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-29  0:00                     ` Nick S Bensema
1997-03-30  0:00                       ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-29  0:00                   ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-29  0:00                     ` Steve Furlong
1997-03-21  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21  0:00             ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-21  0:00               ` William Clodius
1997-03-21  0:00                 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` William Clodius
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-22  0:00               ` Fergus Henderson
1997-03-22  0:00                 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-23  0:00                     ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-24  0:00                   ` FUD (Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Alexander Anderson
1997-03-24  0:00                   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-23  0:00               ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Anders Pytte
     [not found]                 ` <3335BC24.13728473@eiffel.com>
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-31  0:00                       ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-01  0:00                         ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-25  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00                 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-24  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-26  0:00                   ` Ken Garlington
     [not found]                     ` <E7ox17.MKx@syd.csa.com.au>
1997-03-28  0:00                       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00               ` John Hogg
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Laurent Moussault
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-19  0:00         ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Fergus Henderson
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19  0:00             ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-18  0:00         ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-24  0:00           ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-25  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-31  0:00               ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-04-02  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-03  0:00                   ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-04-04  0:00                   ` Jonathan Egre'
1997-04-06  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-06  0:00                       ` Nick Roberts
1997-04-04  0:00                   ` Derek Clarke
1997-03-31  0:00               ` Jan Galkowski
1997-03-31  0:00             ` Alexander Anderson
1997-04-01  0:00             ` Alexander Anderson
1997-04-02  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00         ` John the Hamster
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-18  0:00     ` John McCabe
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Ray McVay
1997-03-27  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-29  0:00           ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-30  0:00             ` Nick Roberts
1997-04-06  0:00             ` Doctorb
1997-04-08  0:00         ` Ron Crocker
1997-04-11  0:00           ` Richard Riehle
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Paul Johnson
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Enrico Facchin - Sartori E.T.
1997-03-19  0:00       ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-17  0:00   ` John McCabe
     [not found]     ` <tz8n2s1hrdc.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-20  0:00       ` John McCabe
1997-03-20  0:00       ` John McCabe
1997-03-20  0:00         ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-20  0:00           ` John McCabe
1997-03-21  0:00             ` Niall Cooling
1997-03-21  0:00               ` Gavin Collings
1997-03-27  0:00                 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-04-03  0:00                   ` Gavin Collings
1997-04-03  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-04  0:00                       ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-06  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-07  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-09  0:00                           ` Gavin Collings
1997-04-03  0:00                   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Chris Beer
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04  0:00                   ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-03  0:00                 ` Robin Rosenberg
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26  0:00           ` Thomas Beale
1997-03-26  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21  0:00       ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-22  0:00     ` Nigel Tzeng
1997-03-23  0:00       ` John McCabe
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19  0:00     ` Eric M. Boyd
1997-03-19  0:00       ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
     [not found]       ` <3345cd60.2092398@news.sydney.apana.org.au>
1997-04-03  0:00         ` Ariane-5 crash , Eiffel and Ada Nick Leaton
1997-04-03  0:00         ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
1997-04-08  0:00         ` AdaWorks
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Tarjei Jensen
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Ulrich Windl
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19  0:00     ` Ron Forrester
1997-03-21  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-22  0:00         ` Ron Forrester
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-21  0:00       ` Frank Manning
1997-03-21  0:00         ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-23  0:00           ` Frank Manning
1997-03-25  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Paul Johnson
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00         ` Design by Contract in C++ (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Anders Pytte
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Nick Leaton
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Nick Leaton
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-21  0:00   ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jon S Anthony
1997-03-21  0:00   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-23  0:00     ` "Paul E. Bennett"
     [not found]   ` <tz8sp1qiywm.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-21  0:00     ` ae59
1997-03-21  0:00   ` Ulrich Windl
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Stuart Yeates
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jon S Anthony
1997-03-28  0:00     ` Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23  0:00     ` Dale Stanbrough
     [not found]       ` <3335E18E.33590565@eiffel.com>
1997-03-23  0:00         ` FUD (Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24  0:00           ` William Grosso
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Brad Appleton
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24  0:00             ` William Clodius
1997-03-24  0:00     ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert Dewar
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Manners (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-25  0:00         ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-22  0:00     ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-23  0:00       ` Steve Furlong
1997-03-24  0:00         ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-24  0:00           ` Simulating Eiffel-style assertions (was: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-25  0:00               ` Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-25  0:00                 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-31  0:00                 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-26  0:00             ` Alan Brain
1997-03-26  0:00               ` Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-29  0:00                 ` How old time languages survive EJon
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00   ` William Clodius
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robb Nebbe
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Nick Leaton
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-27  0:00     ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-31  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-06  0:00         ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Alexander Anderson
1997-03-25  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-25  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-25  0:00   ` David Starr
1997-03-25  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-26  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-26  0:00   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-26  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-27  0:00   ` Trust but verify (was " Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-28  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-28  0:00   ` Trust but verify (was " Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-31  0:00   ` Ken Garlington [this message]
1997-03-23  0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1997-03-17  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-03-20  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-03-25  0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1997-03-24  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-03-27  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-04-03  0:00 Adrian B.Y. Hoe
1997-04-05  0:00 ` Nick Roberts
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