From: Ken Garlington <GarlingtonKE@lmtas.lmco.com>
Subject: Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract
Date: 1997/03/31
Date: 1997-03-31T00:00:00+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <333FEE29.D6@lmtas.lmco.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: tz8ohcjv7cc.fsf@aimnet.com
Jon S Anthony wrote:
>
> In article <slrn5jmbhv.7k9.kennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu> kennel@nospam.lyapunov.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)) writes:
>
> > :Ada _has_ assertions. Their form is not of the same syntactical look
> > :as Eiffel's. So what? They take the form of constraints, in
> > :particular (wrt to the case at hand) subtype constraints. They are
> > :_not_ as flexible or full "featured" as Eiffel's but they are
> > :certainly there and in the Ariane case, they are every bit as capable
> > :as Eiffel's.
> >
> > Of course static type constraints are a form of 'precondition', namely
> > "the object being referred to by this reference, or in this variable is
> > one of these types".
> >
> > By that measure C++, C, and Pascal, and maybe even Fortran have assertions.
>
> Yes, I would agree with that. Also note that while subtypes are
> indeed "primitive" in comparison to Eiffel capabilities, their limits
> can be (and often are) computed at runtime. For example:
>
> subtype Current_Constraint is integer range Current_Min .. Current_Max;
>
> where both Current_Min and Current_Max are functions.
>
> > It is often useful and powerful to program in a style in a
> > statically typed language where important information is encoded
> > into types, but this is not a full substitute for Eiffel's
> > additional capabilities.
>
> Absolutely agreed.
>
> > Whether or not it would have done so in the rocket crash is another
> > story.
>
> Check. The main thing to note in regards to this point is that
>
> a) the sort of assertion capability called out in the M&J paper
> which supposedly could have helped is nothing more (or less) than an
> Ada subtype constraint.
>
> b) the practitioners knew all about this capability and even used
> it in places.
>
> c) the particular case in point was _proven_ to be not possible
> _within_ the contextual environment intended for the use of the
> component.
>
> d) given c) there is no good reason (no reason even) to include such
> an assertion and in fact very good reasons to _not_ include it.
>
> e) for those who think d) is dumb, please note that this sort of
> thing is standard practice in _real_ engineering - lest nothing would
> be buildable and/or useable.
Exactly. It has been implied that, with Design by Contract, that the
reasons _not_ to include an assertion are mitigated to the extent that
just about every conceivable assertion is routinely included in systems
designed with this methodology. I could be easily convinced that there
are more explicit assertions in a DBC program than an Ada program, based
on the extra expressive power in Eiffel specifications. However, if a
programmer sees the violation of an assertion as highly improbably, I
would expect it would not get written regardless of the language used.
I would be interested in evidence to the contrary.
>
> To draw an analogy, someone who is designing a wing notes that the
> context of its use will be that of standard A to B general aviation
> flights. The context also requires all sorts of practical things like
> weight limits, cost limits, etc. for the sort of use it will have.
> Now, such an environment does not require unlimited style acrobatic
> flight or some such. Nor does it assume that the pilots will
> intentionally fly into category 6 thunderstorms. The G loads of the
> environment are will within limit loads of +3 and -1 (ultimate loads
> of +4 and -2).
>
> Now, under such circumstance why would the designer require that the
> wing shall meet limit loads of +10/-10? The attitude of some people
> here seems to be "of course it should be built with such capability -
> some fool _might_ try to fly acro with the plane it is on or maybe go
> into such storms". But that's not the context of use and in the
> intended area of use, the cost of such a thing will be much more than
> another perfectly suitable wing with the appropriate assumed limits.
> It will likely be much heavier as well, and with less usable space for
> fuel cells. This would reduce practical useful load and range in any
> airplane using it. What's more, it is always possible that someone
> would exceed +10/-10 as well. So where do you stop?
>
> Now, where is this sort of contextual information in such real
> engineering designs? In the "code" - i.e., actual example? No way.
> That's way to easy to miss. It's in the associated specifications,
> blueprints, and documentation - including all the way down to the user
> (pilot operating handbook).
>
> /Jon
> --
> Jon Anthony
> Organon Motives, Inc.
> Belmont, MA 02178
> 617.484.3383
> jsa@organon.com
--
LMTAS - The Fighter Enterprise - "Our Brand Means Quality"
For job listings, other info: http://www.lmtas.com or
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~1997-03-31 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 254+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
1997-03-15 0:00 Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Chris Brand
[not found] ` <tz8ohcjv7cc.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-16 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Richard Irvine
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Trust but verify " Robert S. White
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Robb Nebbe
1997-03-27 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-07 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-29 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
[not found] ` <199703190839.JAA02652@stormbringer.irisa.fr>
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Please do not start a language war " Ken Garlington
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Robert S. White
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Robert S. White
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Wolfgang Gellerich
1997-03-20 0:00 ` John L. Ahrens
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Roger T.
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
[not found] ` <tz8913l930b.fsf_-_@aimnet.com>
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war Roedy Green
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Gavin Collings
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Kent Tong
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Ranan Fraer
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
[not found] ` <tz8g1xtzx9y.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Programming language fanaticism! Louis Bastarache
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-27 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-29 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-29 0:00 ` Nick S Bensema
1997-03-30 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-29 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-29 0:00 ` Steve Furlong
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-21 0:00 ` William Clodius
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23 0:00 ` William Clodius
1997-03-23 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-24 0:00 ` FUD (Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Alexander Anderson
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Anders Pytte
[not found] ` <3335BC24.13728473@eiffel.com>
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-01 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
[not found] ` <E7ox17.MKx@syd.csa.com.au>
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` John Hogg
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Laurent Moussault
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-18 0:00 ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-04-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Jonathan Egre'
1997-04-06 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-06 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Derek Clarke
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Jan Galkowski
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-04-01 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-04-02 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20 0:00 ` John the Hamster
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-18 0:00 ` John McCabe
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ray McVay
1997-03-27 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-29 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-30 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1997-04-06 0:00 ` Doctorb
1997-04-08 0:00 ` Ron Crocker
1997-04-11 0:00 ` Richard Riehle
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Paul Johnson
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Enrico Facchin - Sartori E.T.
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-17 0:00 ` John McCabe
[not found] ` <tz8n2s1hrdc.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-20 0:00 ` John McCabe
1997-03-20 0:00 ` John McCabe
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-20 0:00 ` John McCabe
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Niall Cooling
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Gavin Collings
1997-03-27 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Gavin Collings
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-06 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-07 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-09 0:00 ` Gavin Collings
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Chris Beer
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Robin Rosenberg
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Thomas Beale
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21 0:00 ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Nigel Tzeng
1997-03-23 0:00 ` John McCabe
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Eric M. Boyd
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
[not found] ` <3345cd60.2092398@news.sydney.apana.org.au>
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Ariane-5 crash , Eiffel and Ada Nick Leaton
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
1997-04-08 0:00 ` AdaWorks
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Tarjei Jensen
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ulrich Windl
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Ron Forrester
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Ron Forrester
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Frank Manning
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Frank Manning
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Paul Johnson
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Design by Contract in C++ (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Anders Pytte
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Nick Leaton
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Nick Leaton
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jon S Anthony
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-23 0:00 ` "Paul E. Bennett"
[not found] ` <tz8sp1qiywm.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-21 0:00 ` ae59
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Ulrich Windl
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Stuart Yeates
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jon S Anthony
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Dale Stanbrough
[not found] ` <3335E18E.33590565@eiffel.com>
1997-03-23 0:00 ` FUD (Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24 0:00 ` William Grosso
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Brad Appleton
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24 0:00 ` William Clodius
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert Dewar
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Manners (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-25 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Steve Furlong
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Simulating Eiffel-style assertions (was: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Alan Brain
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-29 0:00 ` How old time languages survive EJon
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` William Clodius
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robb Nebbe
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Nick Leaton
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-27 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-06 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Alexander Anderson
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-25 0:00 ` David Starr
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-27 0:00 ` Trust but verify (was " Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Trust but verify (was " Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Ken Garlington [this message]
1997-03-23 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1997-03-17 0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-03-20 0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1997-03-24 0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-03-27 0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-04-03 0:00 Adrian B.Y. Hoe
1997-04-05 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
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