Re: What is wrong with OO ?

[Tansel Ersavas <tansel@rase.com>]

> *Text* from the keyboard of Tansel Ersavas:

Incidentally, sire, I don't think that message was from my keyboard. As
I am working on integrating voice recognition into my software suite, I
try to use a beta of IBM's VoiceType as much as possible, including
recording at least parts of these messages such as this one(I can't
exactly remember about that message, but there is a big change it
isn't).

>>I remember similar discussions that took place when GUIs were first
>>introduced. However, it didn't change the fact that GUI dominated. When
>>CERN fist introduced the text based ancestor of Mosaic, it didn't really
>>motivate any users to participate until the hyper-media concept was
>>introduced. 
>
>BZZZZ - 

Having fun, are we?

>There were also a lot less people connected back then, too. I was
>there. Hypertext systems were gaining in popularity everywhere, from
>Apple's Hypercard to on-line help systems, to project documentation
>(think Web and info).

Nice to know who were there, and what they were doing. It is true that
hypertext was gaining popularity. But tell me since when text based
hypertext browsers were available, and how many people were using them.
Also tell me when Mosaic was introduced and how it affected the number
of people and the web traffic, and tell me one difference between these
browsers.

>  I run about 90% of the time in "no-images mode" using netscrape,
>and I only use netscrape because the folx desigining web pages think
>that layout is more important than content. NS seems to be able to
>keep pages intelligible even without the pics.

In that case I recommend Lynx. It is very good and I use it from time to
time when I access the net over a slow modem. However, as I do not have
a personal dislike for pictures, I only seldom disable pics when I am on
the road, in the office with a T1 line they are blinking fast anyway.

>>One should also remember that text is a visual representation as well.
>
>Pedant. Please pick your terms then. Verbal vs pictorial? Logical vs
>Gestalt? Procedural vs OO?

I am not talking about pictures VS text. I have stated that IMO they are
complimentary. It would be worthwhile to read the entire series of posts
so that you could understand my stand there. I never defended a total
pictorial approach, but a pictorial layer, more an alternative view of
the system that can show you any canonical form of the system in
question, easily switchable between text and pics. You could type text
till you drop and I wouldn't mind as long as I can view what you did in
text and in pics.  When I say pictures will dominate, I do not say that
they will replace text. I am not trying to take away your right to use
text. I just want to introduce my right to use pics as well as text. You
may want to filter out the pictures but I'll keep text, but access,
layer, and enrich it with pictures, and if I want to avoid text as much
as possible, I'll be able to do it.

...

>>so I'll keep quiet about it now.
>
>Thank you.

On second thought, lets talk about it a bit. What do you think text is?
Would you like to look at these following articles and come back and
discuss the subject?

DeRose, S. J., Durand, D. G., Mylonas, E., and Renear A. H. (1990),
'What is Text, Really?', Journal of Computing in Higher Education, 1.2:
3-26.

DeRose, S. J., Durand, D. G., Mylonas, E., and Renear A. H. (1995),
'Refining our Notion of What Text Really Is: The Problem of Overlapping
Hierarchies' in Research in Humanities Computing, Oxford University
Press, edited by Nancy Ide and Susan Hockey

>>I don't think that we can justify the graphical craze in measurable
>>terms such as of ease of use, or or ease of learning.
>
>To quote Robert Heinlein, "If you can't measure it, it's not science."
>
>This does not mean, however, that it is worthless.

Here, here. Still, diagrams can be measured as well as text if the
underlying concept is measurable. I also think Heinlein's quote is
limiting. "Precision" is a term we have to forego some of it when we
deal with complex systems. Some of the measurements are irrelevant, as
the precision of some of them are as well. Modeling sending a rocket to
the Moon is a relatively simple problem that requires a lot of precision
if you compare to modeling driving a car to airport, that requires a
very high number of measurements many of them not needing a great degree
of precision. This may be the reason science in it current cycle can not
have perfect formulas for driving cars. Art is not measurable, but I
would love to hear you call it "worthless". IMO systems development is
an art as much as, if not more than, science.

>I was going to comment on his final paragraph (about text, pictures,
>blind people, and software architecture), but untangling the good from
>the silly was too tiresome.

I thought you were doing a great job so far

>bleah -

>        Go away.

Not a chance, David. However, I recommend filtering out my postings if
they upset you.

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