From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,CTE_8BIT_MISMATCH, INVALID_MSGID,REPLYTO_WITHOUT_TO_CC autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII X-Google-Thread: fac41,b87849933931bc93 X-Google-Attributes: gidfac41,public X-Google-Thread: 109fba,b87849933931bc93 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,b87849933931bc93 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,b87849933931bc93 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-Thread: f43e6,b87849933931bc93 X-Google-Attributes: gidf43e6,public X-Google-Thread: 1108a1,b87849933931bc93 X-Google-Attributes: gid1108a1,public X-Google-Thread: 11cae8,b87849933931bc93 X-Google-Attributes: gid11cae8,public From: Tansel Ersavas Subject: Re: What is wrong with OO ? Date: 1996/12/18 Message-ID: <32B81FD8.6165@rase.com>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 204729890 references: <32AA207E.3199@deep.net> <32B3F45C.5140@deep.net> <5957to$18h@krusty.irvine.com> content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 organization: RASE Inc. mime-version: 1.0 reply-to: tansel@rase.com newsgroups: comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.lang.ada,comp.lnag.java,comp.object,comp.software-eng x-mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) Date: 1996-12-18T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: Adam Beneschan wrote: > "Every training should include a motivational component"??? This is > probably true for trainings that are likely to include a bunch of > unmotivated people who don't want to be there and are in the training > only because their boss is making them and who were hoping to go > through the rest of their lives making money by doing the same thing > over and over without having to learn anything new. Hopefully, I > wouldn't have any such people working for me. I also wouldn't want > employees who are able to get so excited that they would "eagerly > accept" what a teacher is teaching them; I'd prefer those who are > smart enough to look at the material analytically, so that they would > understand when, how, and why to apply it. I would like to congratulate you if you were able to organize such a group. IME only small software houses or very autonomous, independent sections of big companies are able to collect such people. Sadly, in many other cases there are a bunch of people in the courses just because their company want them to be in that course. If you have a group of people who know what they want, and ready to absorb, that would be great. IME, even for eager classes , still use a touch of motivation, which is embedded in my own (as you say) eagerness, and ability to show what can be done with OO, and how different and better it would be. Also my mention of motivation shouldn�t be mixed with pure motivational techniques, which I also use sometimes at my and the people�s discretion. Training can be thread by itself, and I guess it has no place in comp.object unless it is "how to teach OO" which I think should be discussed as well. Meanwhile I know the effectiveness of my techniques, and I�ll continue to use them. > > [By the way, I'm speaking as someone who spent a lot of time and money > in the past in courses that could be called "motivational" or > "self-development" seminars. While they did me a world of good, my > experiences have convinced me that the practice of exciting trainees > so that they accept things eagerly (and unquestioningly) has great > potential for harm as well as for good.] That's true, but what harm could they get from eagerly learning OO? Applying it more rigorously? IME I get more benefit, and hardly any harm. > Finally, does anyone else feel insulted by Tansel's post? There seems > to be an undercurrent that those who don't believe in OO as fervently > as he does [I'm assuming Tansel is a "he"] are unmotivated, have > "given up", don't want to learn anything new, are "followers", etc. > This seems like it would be insulting to many truly professional > engineers. The quote about the "pioneers", "early adopters" "followers" etc. comes from "Diffusion of Innovations" by Everett Rogers, and I quote it a lot along with the percentages. However, I haven't had anybody offended or insulted by these statistics. Yes, IMO anybody joining OO before OO becomes a mainstream will be pioneers or early adopters. If you are looking at penetration of OO to the mainstream computing, we are far off the mainstream as yet. So I couldn't have possibly said or implied that anybody not coming to the OO bandwagon right now would be followers. Besides, even if I implied that, what could be wrong if someone chooses to be a follower? I have the strong belief that people have a right to be where they are, and do what they want. From time to time, I would like to be a follower, rather than a pioneer or an early adopter, and that would be my choice. Anyone pointing that out to me, I would simply state my reasons to be a follower, and listen to the other person with an open mind. I would choose to be a follower or even a conservative if I think that there won't be any benefits, or even some harm can be done by following a certain path. So even if someone declares that they are a conservative, I would listen to what they say, try to understand their reasons. Because I can learn from them, and to a conservative I am the other extreme. I would hope that he or she could do the same for me. Sometimes there is a wisdom of being ahead or behind, it is very healthy, and I have respect for ALL of them. All I want to do is create a little bit excitement for OO, because I can clearly see the benefits of it. So I want everybody to look into it. BTW I heard the "given ups" comment from a child at one of our conversations about computers, and I sometimes quote it because it is an interesting point of view to come out of a 10 year old , not in any way to deride people. > -- Adam Tansel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- RASE Inc. Clark NJ USA Voice: (908) 396 7145 mailto:tansel@rase.com Fax: (908) 382 1383 http://www.rase.com/ ----Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic--- -------------------------------A.C. Clarke-----------------------------