Re: What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?]

[some days weren't there at all <bigdaddy@skylink.net>]

Szu-Wen Huang wrote:
[speaking about the benefit of knowing one/two algorithms deeply
vs. knowing five/six more generally]
>  No, because I know
> which book to look them up in, and that's exactly what books are for.
> The important thing, however, is that I remember that O(n^2) is bad
> for a sorting algorithm, and O(n lg n) is pretty good.
> 
> Now, what about your student that knows *one* algorithm?
	This touches on an interesting point..I'm inclined to believe 
that the _mathmatical_/theoretical training behind the coding exercises 
might make a bit of a difference in how much is retained or understood. 
It doesn't matter how many sorting algorithms I can code, or how many 
different times I can memorize if I don't know where they 'fit' in the 
overall picture. This sort of training should be language-independent.
	I'm taking a CS class now; freshman-level stuff(I hope). The 
professor showed us today _why_ a comparison-based sorting algorithm 
can't take fewer than O(n log n) steps. Maybe I'm a twisted, 
academic-inclined person, but I acutally found the proof interesting. 
Maybe I would go so far as to say _beautiful_. He managed to present it 
in a straightforward way, w/o needing mathmatical notation, in such a 
way that it became obviously correct. That's independent of language.
	 
 
[responding to comment about all of CS being 'intuitive']
>  Many algorithms are obvious.  Insertion sort, for example,
> is what a human would do (if somewhat parallelized).  Quicksort, on
> the other hand, is nowhere near intuitive.  Be realistic.
	I would submit that recursive solutions require a different sort 
of intuition than the normal. At least it seems that way to me. If I'm 
looking to solve a problem recursively, I'll (now) naturally think about 
ways to split the problem set in half to minimize work. Why? Because 
I've been exposed to the idea.
	It seems to me that this kind of intuition can be developed. In 
my own case, early experience with Scheme (thank you, Mr. Grillmeyer), 
has led to a _much_ better grasp of recursion and recursive tree 
structures. I honestly think it was one of the best preparations I could 
have had...although I am the first to admit that I can't really back up 
that statement. :-)
	In any case, building/reinforcing these patterns of thought 
should be very important. I want to get to the point where QuickSort 
*is* intuitive, simply because, well, "it has to be that way". It's that 
kind of visceral understanding, coupled with the ability (when 
necessary) to back it up by referring to sound justification, which 
helps on the programming projects I am compelled to do. When I can't 
produce it, I flounder. 
	
[apologies for cutting the previous poster out of this post]
[back-and-forth about assembler vs. HLL]
> It doesn't matter.  You are burdening beginners with details that
> you could've avoided by using an HLL.  
	Um, just as an aside, I do not know assembler, and I do not 
presume to comment on its complexity or suitability for CS instruction, 
but many thanks to whomever posted the gcc -S switch. I tried it on one 
of my current C++ source files, and the result was, well, interesting. I 
understood little of it, but I spent a very small amount of time, and am 
unfamiliar with the conventions of the language (what's an .fstab? file 
system table?).
	At least I can look at the assembler output now. Never knew I 
could do that before. Thanks.

>My school was contemplating
> teaching one freshman class Prolog as a first language and another
> Pascal, then switch in their second year to observe which was more
> effective.  
	Out of curiosity, why Prolog? I was taught that it represents a 
different paradigm/model/whatever from both functional and imperative 
programming; sort of "off by itself". It's not a language I know much 
about. One more thing to do in the next couple years, I guess. :-)
	  	

>It's too bad the experiment has practical problems,
> because it would be interesting to see if it's easier for a "recursive-
> minded" student to study iteration or the reverse. 
	Personally, I think the form/paradigm of the language being 
studied, as well as what can and cannot be expressed, would have a much 
deeper effect on coding style and programming practice. The first 
language I studied academically (I refuse to count BASIC as my 'first 
language'!) was Scheme. It's a wondefully expressive and functional way 
to do things, or at least it _appears this way to me_ because I learned 
the concepts of programming by working with it. I know it has had a 
profound effect upon my understanding of recursion, and undoubtedly an 
influence on my coding style.
	I've gone on to Pascal, and now C++, and have had to adjust 
accordingly. Making the transition to Pascal was more than just studying 
iteration (actually, there's a (do construct in Scheme...not 
reccomended, but it works) - it required a complete change in 
understanding of what a function is and how it works. I remember one 
project when I tried to pass functions as arguments...and did not get 
particularly far. Of course, now, with C++, I can do this. I also have 
operator overloading. However, I'm trying to be a good C++ citizen and 
concentrate on this funny objet-oriented concept. :-) 
	
> In any case,
> you want to train students in problem solving, not why the OS requires
> value X in register Y.
	Any programming assignment in any language will require a great 
degree of problem solving. I spent/am spending far, far, far too much 
time tracking down and squashing bugs, no matter what language I have/am 
program(ming) in. Some of these are syntax errors, but far more are 
simply not thinking out my algorithm completely enough. Garbage in, 
garbage out...
	Again, I do not have the pleasure of being acquainted with 
assembler, but it seems that a student will simply adapt to the 
landscape of whatever language is his/her first and then use that to 
solve any proceeding problems. The question of "What language to learn 
first?" then becomes "What do you want your mind to look like?" If 
you've got a hammer...

-David Molnar