From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_05,INVALID_MSGID autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 109fba,f292779560fb8442 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: fac41,af40e09e753872c X-Google-Attributes: gidfac41,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,30e368bdb3310fe5 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 1014db,30e368bdb3310fe5 X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public X-Google-Thread: 1008e3,30e368bdb3310fe5 X-Google-Attributes: gid1008e3,public X-Google-Thread: f8c65,30e368bdb3310fe5 X-Google-Attributes: gidf8c65,public X-Google-Thread: 10db24,30e368bdb3310fe5 X-Google-Attributes: gid10db24,public From: lr-lang@csm.uwe.ac.uk (Bob Lang 3P21 x3172) Subject: Re: The Last Word on Comments (was Re: Hungarian notation) Date: 1996/06/06 Message-ID: <1996Jun6.102155.25867@pat.uwe.ac.uk>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 158829515 sender: usenet@pat.uwe.ac.uk (uwe nntp usenet poster) references: <4o07o9$rfu@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4o1vo3$p2a@news1.ni.net> <4oegks$ntn@goanna.cs.rmit.EDU.AU> <4p2jau$hkp@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> <4p3dad$mia@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> organization: University of the West of England. newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.modula3,comp.lang.modula2,comp.edu,comp.lang.eiffel Date: 1996-06-06T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: In article <4p3dad$mia@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, fulton.52@osu.edu (Mike Fulton) writes: > Why don't schools design projects/labs that build upon themselves. Every one > of my projects could have been done without doing the preceding projects. > When we implemented Abstract Data Types (ADT), they gave us the .def files and > told use how to use the procedures. Why not have us build those > implementation modules first. Start with what the language gives you and then > extend it. Create an ADT from the ground up. Then have us use the ADT we > made to implement other ADT by layering them over our first ones. > [snipped to save space] I would *dearly* love to teach programming as you suggest, but there are a number of practical difficulties that prevent it... 1) Stupid modular schemes. For no sound academic reason, many UK universities have gone away from their traditional "course based" structure to a modular structure. In a modular scheme, work is divided into small chunks (modules) each of which lasts one or two semesters (semesters are another dreadful idea). This apparently gives the student lots of freedom to pick and choose modules. At the end of the three or four years, the profile of modules taken and the grades achieved go to give the student the final classification of degree. The problem here is that work described must of necessity be split across several modules, spanning a period of time. But only those students who successfully passed the first module can go on to the second, and only those who successfully passed the second can go on to the third, etc. Students are prevented from joining in the middle - even those who have moved across from similar courses at other universities. This is very restrictive and goes against the whole idea of modular schemes. (Modules are great in Modula-2, but not a good idea academically) 2) Can't "progress" to another language. We teach Modula-2 as a first language as it gives a basic grounding, whilst still allowing serious applications. But many students like the idea of learning a number of different languages during their university time. More time spent doing Modula-2 means less time doing C, C++, Ada, etc. Now I'm a great fan of Mod-2, but I know there are more C/C++ jobs outside my ivory tower than there are Mod-2 jobs. 3) You can't teach everything. When I came in to university teaching from industry, I was quite shocked by how *little* we seemed to teach the students. Thirty weeks of term-time each year seems a lot, but it's surprising how quickly it goes. Students can only accept information so fast, and any attempt to speed up soon leaves them behind, so you have to back track (losing more time). UK universities are under severe financial constraints which means that they literally cannot afford to have a huge drop out rate. That means that the best we can do is spend three or four years giving students the basic info they need to survive out there, and the academic tools to pick up the rest as they go along. BTW, the amount we teach now greatly exceeds the amount I learned at university 20 years ago - some in industry would say it still isn't enough. Regards Bob ~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~ __ ~~ ~~ ~~~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~ _