From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Received: by 10.182.131.164 with SMTP id on4mr5249292obb.40.1420687346465; Wed, 07 Jan 2015 19:22:26 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.182.214.106 with SMTP id nz10mr104265obc.4.1420687346249; Wed, 07 Jan 2015 19:22:26 -0800 (PST) Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!mx02.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!news.glorb.com!h15no815157igd.0!news-out.google.com!qk8ni790igc.0!nntp.google.com!h15no841186igd.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 19:22:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=73.46.72.234; posting-account=yiWntAoAAAC1KqC_shmxJYv07B9l6LNU NNTP-Posting-Host: 73.46.72.234 References: <87bnmetex4.fsf@ludovic-brenta.org> <4ae7f0d5-d681-4be9-95bc-b5e789b3ad40@googlegroups.com> <87tx06rve6.fsf@ludovic-brenta.org> <87lhlirpk0.fsf@ludovic-brenta.org> <79f3eff7-2b45-40ae-af94-fa9a17426d82@googlegroups.com> <87bnmd8mg2.fsf@ixod.org> <19cf9bc2-f8b9-4735-b427-7b070dda59da@googlegroups.com> <72ede803-e2e9-4e21-a415-457374bef87d@googlegroups.com> <1337ca4c-a19e-468e-bc07-5412438f662b@googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <17ad25fe-e04f-4d79-a622-0b2455c150a0@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: GNAT GPL is not shareware From: David Botton Injection-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 03:22:26 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Xref: news.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:24465 Date: 2015-01-07T19:22:26-08:00 List-Id: > RRS started low-cost compilers in 1984, long before GNAT existed. But=20 > whatever. And then the entire small compiler market for Ada was tiny, and microscopic= compared to markets for Turbo Pascal or Turbo C++, in fact Turbo Prolog (I= liked that) was probably larger a 1000 fold. Many companies did excellent in the low-cost compiler market in those days.= None of those companies exists per se now. (Borland for example, whose cat= alog is still dragged along for old customers even with some enhancements) > But if there is no market, then there is no point in making a compiler at= =20 > all, because giving it away will not pay the bills. Correct. That has been the case now for a long time. Like most things these days you need alternative models for monetizing your= creative ideas since the old ones are used up, that is part of progress. =20 > Outreach in the form of demos, GPL versions, etc is cool, but not if it= =20 > cannablizes your main revenue stream (whatever that is). In a world of libre software if giving it away would cannibalizes your busi= ness then you have no real business model, fools will do things to slow the= bleeding like shareware... smart companies understand the code today is no= t the product and can not be the product, it is just a means to the end. Support is one revenue stream but there are many others one can tap in to i= n any market. In general every market today needs to be creative to generat= e revenues. Examples beyond compilers: Evernote - 30% of its monthly sales was in _physical goods_ in Dec 2013, 3 = months after launch. I don't have recent numbers but I suspect far more now= . I make a large part of my medical clinic revenue from alternative revenue s= treams. 40% of the people that come to me for medical assistance can not af= ford it or if their insurance not paying for the services there is a mental= barrier to out of pocket for care even when needed. So I discount or offer= my medical services for free and make up overall with other services and p= roducts they are willing to pay for and/or can afford. (Another example of = my win win approach to business and proof it always works, and closer to th= e idea of OpenSource) I built a school over the last few years, also using creative funding metho= ds (All win win situations, those that can't afford have schooling options,= etc. etc.) and a few other projects and business all succeeding using crea= tive funding methods. (Each again with win win scenarios for everyone) There are many ways anyone can succeed when they have the humility to find = them and if they try a win win way of doing it are usually blessed with muc= h success. If even a pompous guy with a blown up head like me can find avenues to succ= ess, any one can :) > So I'm not quite sure what your point was. Which is probably why I missed= =20 > it. :-) << Most of these vendors have the same small minded thinking of only lookin= g at direct sales instead of expanding the user base through mass marketing= efforts through free or cheap compiler options.>> Point was: There is only doom to vendors that think their products are the compilers. That it is counter productive to place any stumbling block in the way of Ad= a use for any purpose since the compiler is not the source of revenue and t= he larger the base of Ada users in all markets the larger the pool of those= that will influence a potential customer to buy the real products vendors = offer or could offer. Here is a recent example of small minded thinking: https://www.mail-archive.com/gcc-patches@gcc.gnu.org/msg100382.html Unless the tools needed to build with gpr file are up streamed to the FSF t= he barrier to a working toolset out of the box got even larger. [I will gla= dly eat my words and even apologize openly if gprtools and its dependencies= xmlada and gnatcoll are up-streamed to the FSF and become part of the regu= lar build of the toolchain] - ya ya someone will write download from libre.= . start a new thread if you want to argue about why I am wrong to say it ha= s to be through the FSF, don't hijack this one. GPL as a weapon rule #2 - You don't have to deliver source that works easil= y, just something that could work if you knew how. Rule #1 we all know - infect the outputs with GPL virus to encumber your vi= ctim GPL is a gun (letters spell gnu... hmm) used correctly it brings security t= o all - everyone can see what's inside, improve on it, etc, in the wrong ha= nds a gun to cripple innovation through "technically correct" uses of the G= PL. > And all of those things require people skills that many=20 > software developers don't have and can't realistically acquire (I suspect= =20 > that many developers are borderline autistic). And so the rule that the key to success of a business is the team's diversi= ty of skills. The places I do have partners they are rarely like me in any = way, but share my passion for whatever the goal of that organization is or = has been. I choose my employees, partners, etc. based on their passion for = the goal, _before_ even their skills. (Heck you all get to decode my poor g= rammar and spelling from banging out a post barely proofing it first, and m= ost just accept me for my passion for Ada and forgive it :) > But people that have those sorts of skills have many opportunities better= =20 > than software. So it's hard to imagine who will be filling these jobs If they have people and software skills they tend to do both or bring toget= her teams of people on both sides. If they don't have software skills but j= ust people skills they bring together software teams for common goals. My experience is that sometimes we don't evaluate where we fit in to things= and do not team with the right diversity but instead pick people just like= ourselves that will not rock the boat and be "yup" men. > And the people who traditionally have built software are unemployed or=20 > underemployed. Those that didn't continue expanding their skill sets usually. There are on= ly so many jobs for people that no the ins and the outs of Wangs :) (But I = do know someone making a living there too... I wonder what happens when tha= t job is gone for him) > (Of course, most jobs will be automated in the coming years,=20 > so that is going to be a growing problem for society to deal with.) And those that expand the skill sets in to the new areas that come with it = will succeed. During the Cultural Revolution in China they stupidly killed off most of th= eir greatest treasures, their culture and past to replace it with the new "= western" knowledge. Main land China almost completely destroyed their medic= al knowledge base in the zeal for it. If it wasn't for post revolution effo= rts to take the remnants and force them to work together to record their kn= owledge even more would have been lost than already was. They then took the= old knowledge applied western and innovations abound. The past offers gems for the future, so I write "expand" not replace or eve= n add. The idea behind Gnoga for example is to expand Ada to current tech o= utside the safety critical niche. With that Ada gets more life and those th= at know it can expand with it. One hand on the past (Ada just like Chinese = medicine of the past is just as much also the present) and one hand on the = future. As is I am using borrowed time for Ada, but I wish I had more time. Such a = rich past deserves a rich future. I hope others will find some passion this= year for some new way to use Ada or new interface to modern tech, etc. (BTW, having been many times on the hiring boards for large companies or st= artups, we always grabbed up people with innovative public projects before = anyone else, even with tons of degrees, etc., it showed they have initiativ= e, drive, passion, and skill) > There's little of value beyond software sales I can assure you there is or the companies making google plex amounts of mo= ney giving software away for free wouldn't be making it ;) > (and I don't consider=20 > "maintenance contracts" a-la AdaCore any different than sales). They are sales, just not direct software sales, but service sales. Confusion what the product really is, is why things are stagnant beyond the= niche and bleeding around it. > Most remaining jobs are glorified marketing jobs that society would be be= tter off without. South Florida is flat, no valleys and no mountains (highest point in my cou= nty is a small hill at a botanical garden I like to bring the family to), y= et there are many jobs available for the right skill sets. I am hoping that Gnoga will allow Ada programmers the ability to write and = sell products for small businesses, the old software pioneering. (Yes is di= rect sales, but if they are innovative far more ;) I get calls every week a= sking if I know someone that can write for their company a program that doe= s X, etc. They don't care how just that it is done quick and reasonably pri= ced. So at least for "our guys" there is a win win to come. > I'm sure it's possible to make money from software, because it's possible= =20 > for con men to make money from nothing, but whether its possible to make= =20 > money and retain one's ethics is highly dubious. There is a beautiful world out there. Most of it is far away from governmen= t related projects though :) In summary of all that hot air: Expanded_skill_sets + humility + passion + win_win =3D Success. David Botton