From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,INVALID_MSGID autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 109fba,1042f393323e22da X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: 1014db,1042f393323e22da X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,1042f393323e22da X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public From: clines@delete_this.airmail.net (Kevin Cline) Subject: Re: Any research putting c above ada? Date: 1997/05/06 Message-ID: <03B907A80FDCD8D3.DE497CB31B087CAB.8E8ECC050055517C@library-proxy.airnews.net>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 239683268 References: <5ih6i9$oct$1@waldorf.csc.calpoly.edu> <5k60au$gig@bcrkh13.bnr.ca> <5k88f8$387@bcrkh13.bnr.ca> <336E0B58.50D6@DIE_SPAMMER.dasd.honeywell.com> X-Orig-Message-ID: <336fc57c.9720187@news.airmail.net> Organization: INTERNET AMERICA NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library.airnews.net Newsgroups: comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.c,comp.lang.ada Date: 1997-05-06T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: John Apa wrote: >I have an EE degree. Many of my friends were CS majors. All very smart >and also unprepared for the job market (for better or worse, many live >in Redmond now, SW hell I think). What makes you think Microsoft is a bad place to work? They have developed software that a great many people find extremely useful. To me, it beats the heck out of developing a one-off application that may or may not be fielded. It also pays better. >They were taught the wonderful >languages of lisp, algol, and other "interesting" languages. However, >these are things that do not help you find a job. I interview one or two people a week, from new college hires to very experienced professionals. It is not true that studying LISP and ALGOL will not help you get a job. Actually, although we program in C++, I do not really care what languages candidates know, provided that they can demonstrate knowledge commensurate with their training and experience. If a new graduate can give me some good reasons why they enjoyed programming in LISP more than in ALGOL, I will hire them, because they are likely to have a solid understanding of C++ (or any other language) in short order. >Which, I think most people will agree, is the main goal of most people going to college. >College is not about learning, it's about jumping through all the right >hoops and writing down what the profs want to see. I don't recommend anyone with this attitude, because we need adults with problem solving skills, not juvenile grade-grubbers. A low GPA will make it harder for you to get an interview, but a high GPA is no guarantee of a job. We just turned down an MSCS graduate with a 3.5+ GPA, because the candidate couldn't demonstrate any understanding of the coursework. > Anyone who doesn't >believe that has probably never pointed out a design error to a prof in >class. Granted this is worst case but in my (and many of my associates >and friends) experience this is the way many profs work. That is truly unfortunate. However, with industry salaries for top-notch experienced professionals in six figures now, it is hard to get good instruction for $100/credit hour. If you do, be grateful; it's charity. > I did have a few, maybe 5, profs who were able to teach and encouraged us. Five! That's not so bad. I hope you learned everything you could from them, and took all possible steps to complain about the rest. >We will always need people in academia to do research, but at the same >time someone has to know how to go out and engineer solutions to real >world problems. After all, someone has to keep the planes in the air. Which is hard to do with no understanding of fundamental data structures and algorithms. >I have long thought that we need to have a degree in the field of >Software Engineering for those who want to learn how to apply SW >technology to the real world. There are many schools that have more practical programs. But I believe that some knowledge of CS theory is required to work effectively on new applications. I do not recommend candidates who are unable to demonstrate some knowledge of CS theory. >CS could be free to remain dedicated to >doing the pure research that so many of the profs love. It would also >give students more freedom to chose their career direction. Few undergraduates know enough to choose their career direction. But a good understanding of CS opens the most doors, and leads to the most rewarding careers. >CS covers many great things, but solving design problems is not one of >them (at least in my experience). There is not enough time in an undergraduate cirriculum to teach SW engineering judgment. But there are plenty of excellent books on the subject. I suggest you try to read one technical book a month. Soon you will be well ahead of your classmates.