From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,INVALID_MSGID, RATWARE_MS_HASH,RATWARE_OUTLOOK_NONAME autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 109fba,baaf5f793d03d420 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public X-Google-Thread: fc89c,97188312486d4578 X-Google-Attributes: gidfc89c,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,97188312486d4578 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 1014db,6154de2e240de72a X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public From: "Tim Behrendsen" Subject: Re: What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?] Date: 1996/08/22 Message-ID: <01bb906e$6e2d85a0$87ee6fce@timpent.airshields.com>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 175796551 references: <01bb8f19$9a89d820$32ee6fce@timhome2> <4vhgjk$8kc@zeus.orl.mmc.com> content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 organization: A-SIS mime-version: 1.0 newsgroups: comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.unix.programmer,comp.lang.ada Date: 1996-08-22T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: Bob Gilbert wrote in article <4vhgjk$8kc@zeus.orl.mmc.com>... > In article <01bb8f19$9a89d820$32ee6fce@timhome2>, "Tim Behrendsen" writes: > > > > There is no other view than the procedural view. > > Don't think so. > > > There is no > > such thing as an algorithm that exists in zero time. Even if > > there is only one operation, or (n) operations that happen > > simultaneously, it is still (n) data transformations that take > > place over time. > > And this relates to procedural vs non-procedural views how???? We may be having a terminology crisis; when I say "procedure", I mean the computer doing work, by whatever method it uses, over time. Exactly how can a computer do work, either without procedures, or without time? > > How can someone implement *any* sort in assembly language, > > and "learn it but not really understand it"? > > Easy. Understanding the how and why an algorithm works has little > to do with implementing it, regardless of the language used. How > does being able to implement a sort in assembly provide a student > with the ability to prove that the given sort algorithm will work for > all cases? Learning to implement, and learning sound implementation > techniques (regardless of language) is a separate issue from learning > algorithm development and analysis. You are right, in a mechanistic literal view of the world. From a human, reality view, implementation has a *lot* to do with learning algorithm development and analysis. You don't just plug in the 'dev and ana' disk into the student's ear. They learn through trial and error, and what cements concepts into their head is the implementation of the concepts. > > To implement it, > > you have to do it in great detail, and you simply can't do the > > "push and prod until it works" approach to programming, which > > is what I think a lot of students do. > > I think anyone can "push and prod" in any language. It's a hell of lot harder to push and prod assembly. -- Tim Behrendsen (tim@airshields.com)