From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,INVALID_MSGID, RATWARE_MS_HASH,RATWARE_OUTLOOK_NONAME autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,97188312486d4578 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-Thread: 1014db,6154de2e240de72a X-Google-Attributes: gid1014db,public X-Google-Thread: fc89c,97188312486d4578 X-Google-Attributes: gidfc89c,public X-Google-Thread: 109fba,baaf5f793d03d420 X-Google-Attributes: gid109fba,public From: "Tim Behrendsen" Subject: Re: What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?] Date: 1996/08/06 Message-ID: <01bb83ad$29c3cfa0$87ee6fce@timpent.airshields.com>#1/1 X-Deja-AN: 172505140 references: <31FBC584.4188@ivic.qc.ca> <01bb7da2$6c505ac0$96ee6fcf@timhome2> <01bb8027$de0e9c80$96ee6fcf@timhome2> <4u5a11$siv@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> <01bb8342$88cc6f40$32ee6fcf@timhome2> <4u7grn$eb0@news1.mnsinc.com> content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 organization: A-SIS mime-version: 1.0 newsgroups: comp.lang.c,comp.lang.c++,comp.unix.programmer,comp.lang.ada Date: 1996-08-06T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: Szu-Wen Huang wrote in article <4u7grn$eb0@news1.mnsinc.com>... > Tim Behrendsen (tim@airshields.com) wrote: > : Maybe I'm weird, but I just don't see assembly as being harder > : than a HLL, and in fact, it seems to me that it's much easier. > : The number of fundamental things to learn is *very* small, and > : I would think that being able to show a problem in terms of the > : "array of memory" being manipulated would just make it infinitely > : easier than having to wrestle with all the abstract nonsense. > > I know what you're trying to say, but you neglect what the subject > is trying to teach. I don't need my students to learn how to print > out a string calling interrupt this function that, or that the > instruction *after* a branch is always executed (in some pipelined > RISCs), or you cannot divide by the ZZX register. These will all > be useless in a few years, perhaps even a few months. I need my > students to learn when and why quicksort is more efficient than > bubblesort, and telling them to use assembly sidetracks that effort. Let me bring it back full-circle where we started. The reason I mention assembly in the first place was the number of graduates coming to me for a job that were failing the test I give *abysmally*, particularly in the areas of creating an algorithm for a problem they've never seen before, and doing logical operations. I chalked this up to the lack of the fundamentals being taught, and the students having their brains filled up so much with abstractions that they don't understand how to solve problems anymore. This is why I think assembly is the better way to teach algorithms; it's just you and the algorithm. It forces them to really think about the problem, because they don't have any "training wheels" to protect them from the problem. Whatever were doing now is *not working*, let me tell you. -- Tim Behrendsen (tim@airshields.com)