From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,885dab3998d28a4 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public From: Simon Johnston Subject: Re: Real-world education (was: Ariane 5 failure) Date: 1996/10/02 Message-ID: <01BBB063.902F7220@idc213.rb.icl.co.uk> X-Deja-AN: 186725480 sender: Ada programming language comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" mime-version: 1.0 newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: 1996-10-02T00:00:00+00:00 List-Id: Michael Feldman wrote: > In article <1996Sep29.193602.17369@enterprise.rdd.lmsc.lockheed.com>, > Chris McKnight wrote: >=20 > [Rich Pattis' good stuff snipped.] > > > > An excellent bit of teaching, IMHO. Glad to hear they're putting = some > > more of the real world issues in the class room. >=20 > Rich Pattis is indeed an experienced, even gifted teacher of > introductory courses, with a very practical view of what they > should be about. >=20 > Without diminishing Rich Pattis' teaching experience or skill one bit, > I am somewhat perplexed at the unfortunate stereotypical view you > seem to have of CS profs. Yours is the second post today to have > shown evidence of that stereotypical view; both you and the other > poster have industry addresses. I think some of it must come from experience, I have met some really = good, industry focused profs ho teach with a real "useful" view (my = first serious language was COBOL!). I have also met the "computer = science" guys, without whom we would never move forward. I have also met = some inbetween who really don't have that engineering focus or the = science. =20 > This is my 22nd year as a CS prof, I travel a lot in CS education > circles, and - while we, like any population, tend to hit a bell > curve - I've found that there are a lot more of us out here than > you may think with Pattis-like commitment to bring the real world > into our teaching. Mike, I know from your books and postings here the level of engineering = you bring to your teaching, we are discussing (I believe) the balance in = teaching computing as an engineering discipline or as an ad-hoc = individual "art". > Sure, there are theorists, as there are in any field, studying > and teaching computing just because it's "beautiful", with little > reference to real application, and there's a definite place in the > teaching world for them. Indeed, exposure to their "purity" of > approach is healthy for undergraduates - there is no harm at all > in taking on computing - sometimes - as purely an intellectual > exercise. >=20 > But it's a real reach from there to an assumption that most of us > are in that theoretical category. I don't think many of the people I work with have made this leap. =20 > I must say that there's a definite connection between an interest > in Ada and an interest in real-world software; certainly most of > the Ada teachers I've met are more like Pattis than you must think. > Indeed, it's probably our commitment to that "engineering" view > of computing that brings us to like and teach Ada. Certainly (or as in my case COBOL) it leads you into an application = oriented way of thinking which makes you think about requirements, = testing etc. [snip] let me give you a little anecdote f my own.=20 I recently went for a job interview with a very large well-known = software firm. Firstly they wanted me write the code to traverse a = binary tree for which they described the (C) data structures. Then I was = asked to write code to insert a node in a linked list (I had to ask what = the requirements for cases such as the list being empty or the node = already existing where). Finally I was asked to write the code to find = all the anagrams in a given string. There were no business type questions, no true analytical questions, the = things which as an engineer I have to do each day. The problems set me = have a simple and single answer which I don't write each day. I am sure = you can recite off hand the way to traverse a binary tree, but I have to = stop and think because I wrote it ONCE, AGES AGO and wrote it as a = GENERIC which I can REUSE. I know an understanding of these algorithms = is required so that I can decide which of my generics to use, but that = is why I invest in good books! By the way I happen to know someone who works for this firm who told me = that graduate programmers seem to do well in their interview process, he = once interviewed an engineer with 20 years industry experience and a PhD = who got up and left half way through the interview in disgust. with StandardDisclaimer; use StandardDisclaimer; package Sig is --,----------------------------------------------------------------------= ---. --|Simon K. Johnston - Development Engineer (C++/Ada95) |ICL Retail = Systems | --|-----------------------------------------------------|3/4 Willoughby = Road| --|Internet : skj@acm.org |Bracknell = | --|Telephone: +44 (0)1344 476320 Fax: +44 (0)1344 476302|Berkshire = | --|Internal : 7261 6320 OP Mail: S.K.Johnston@BRA0801 |RG12 8TJ = | --|WWW URL : http://www.acm.org/~skj/ |United Kingdom = | --`----------------------------------------------------------------------= ---' end Sig;